Dismantling America
Filmed in the thick of the Obama years. Sowell on where the country was headed, and why he wasn't optimistic.
- Interviewer
- Peter Robinson
- Program
- Uncommon Knowledge
- Topics
- Politics
Quotes from this interview
Lines worth carding. Press one to jump the video to that moment.
Read the transcriptShowHide
Lightly cleaned for reading (75 of Sowell’s turns). Tap any timestamp to jump the video there.
Welcome to Uncommon Knowledge. I'm Peter Robinson. Be sure to follow us on Twitter, if you would, at twitter.com/uncknowledge, twitter.com/uncknowledge. comment, ask questions, suggest guests. A fellow at the Hoover Institution, Dr. Thomas Sowell has taught economics, intellectual history, and social policy at such institutions as Cornell, Amherst, and UCLA. The author of more than a dozen books, Dr. Sowell has just published a collection of essays, Dismantling America. Tom, welcome. Oh, good to be here. Segment one: Decline and Fall from Dismantling America. Quote, "The collapse of a civilization is not just the replacement of rulers or institutions with new rulers and new institutions. It is the destruction of a whole way of life and the painful and sometimes pathetic attempts of rebuilding ama- amid the ruins. Is that where America is headed? I believe it is." Close quote. Now, whatever troubles we have, it's still the richest, most powerful nation in the world. We're still fundamentally at peace. Some soldiers in Iraq, some soldiers in Afghanistan, some in Germany, some in South Korea, but relatively small wars by historical standards in Afghanistan and Iraq. How can you say such a thing?
Well, you know, that description would also have fit the United States on December 6, 1941. So it's like the argument that was used when I, when I used to question wheth- whether Social Security was fiscally sound, and they said, "Social Security has never missed a payment. It's never been a day late or a dollar short." I said, "That's always true right up to the moment of collapse."
Again, from Dismantling America, "While the Obama administration is not the root cause of the ominous dangers that face this country at home and abroad, it is the embodiment, the personification, and the culmination of dangerous trends that began decades ago." How does the President of the United States embody dangerous trends? How do you see this man?
Oh, my gosh. - I see him as someone who all his life has been associated with and part of a group of people who fundamentally don't believe in the principles of this country. Not only peo- When... The most obvious example, obviously, is Jeremiah Wright. people like Bill Ayers, whom he's, you know, tried to disavow. but people who, fundamentally think that we're on the wrong track, we have the wrong principles, and we need to be changed, whether we wanna be or not.
Tom, you mentioned Jeremiah Wright, his pastor- -hmm... at, a church in Chicago. You mentioned Bill Ayers, a f- who was a former member of, -
Of the Weather Underground- The Weather Underground
terrorist group Exactly. What about his formation, his intellectual formation at Columbia, Harvard Law School?
You were talking, you said he- Well, as he, as he himself says, he always sought out the most radical people.
hmm.
he worked as a community organizer. I don't think most people stop and think, "What does a community organizer do?" He doesn't organize a community.
He org- It's not bake sales. Huh? It's not bake sales he's organizing.
No, he's not, he's not telling people in the community how, how to, pro- shop better and stuff like that. He is mobilizing all the resentments, organizing them in order to, put them into, a battle to get what they want from other people.
Now, you talk about Barack Obama as embodying dangerous trends, quote, "that began decades ago."
Oh, yes
When? This is during your lifetime, during your adult- Yeah... lifetime? Yes. All right. And perhaps even a little earlier. But I think what you see, in the, in the, most clearly, I think, in the academic world, are people who don't think that this country is a, is a great country. one example of a colleague of mine who teaches at Harvard, after 9/11, put a, an American flag on his car, and his colleagues said, "What is that for?"
Hmm.
when I visited Berkeley in the aftermath of, 9/11, when I went and there were, you know, flags everywhere, I did not see one flag on the Berkeley campus, on any of those expensive houses. You know, when I was, I was coming back from Berkeley, the first American flag I saw was in a low-income Black neighborhood in Oakland. Oof. these are people who consider themselves citizens of the world, and that, and that, that the rest of us are so lucky to have them here to change America so that people like us don't have a voice. And of course, the whole way that Obama has operated with these enormous bills that no one has ever had ti- time to read, that they rush through, where they're putting people in power who don't have to go through the confirmation process so that we don't find out what they're like except by, if there's an expose on Fox News or some place. I mean, this whole thing has been to circumvent the American public in order to put in things that they clearly don't want, as shown by the polls, as shown by this recent, repudiation in Missouri.
All right, that's, that's a question. Barack Obama won by about seven percentage points. -hmm. That's the biggest for a Democratic presidential candidate. Bill Clinton won by eight, FDR won by big, but that's the, he's in the top three Democratic finishers- Yeah... in the last seven decades-... Barack Obama is. So here's the question. You've described him, you've described the academic elites. To what extent The American people voted for him. Yes. To what extent do you see a corrosion of values among the American people themselves on the one hand? On the other hand, to what extent is there just a kind of creeping takeover by an elite that is, that fails to share, that is opposed to the values that most Americans share?
There's bo- there's both things, and I think part of, part of the reason so many people voted for him was that, what they got through the media, was so, filtered- -hmm... that the, you know, they poo-pooed this man having been, a member of a church, run by a ranting racist. because they wanted to believe that he was gonna be a unifier. Community organizers don't unify. They divide. They polarize. That's how they get what they want. you know, I never thought of ACORN as, as a unifying, force in American life. and, and this man is not. But of course, if they don't know that, then of course they may vote for him.
So it's the press.
hmm.
It's Barack Obama and the administration.. It's the elites at academic institutions.
But it's, it's not, it's not just a thing that happened now. Long before Barack Obama's name became known, there was this attitude, essentially repudiating this, the principles of the country. I mean, it started, I think, with Woodrow Wilson- Right who was the first president of the United States to openly say that the Constitution, you know, needed to be superseded. And he didn't mean that there needed to be amendments to the Constitution, which, you know, anybody can be for, because... But that the courts should do this. In other words, to circumvent the public, the voting public, and put in the things that the judges think, ought to be put in irrespective of what the Constitution says.
Segment two, dismantling America. Two quotations. The first comes from your book, Dismantling America. This segment is on marriage. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, you write, said that, "The life of the law has not been logic, but experience. Vast numbers of laws have accumulated and evolved over the centuries based on experience with male-female unions. There is no reason why all those laws should be transferred willy-nilly to a different kind of union, one with neither the inherent tendency to produce children or the inherent asymmetries of relationships between people of different sexes." That's quotation one. -hmm. Here's quotation two. US District Judge Vaughn Walker, ruling in Perry v. Schwarzenegger on August 4th, quote, "Gender no longer forms an essential part of marriage," close quote. I just dropped that in your lap to see what you do with it, Dr. Sowell.
Well, you know, the most important decision, is always who makes the decision. And so the question is not what is the role of gender for this judge to decide, but since we are presumably still, for the moment at least, a s- a self-governing nation, it's for the, it's for the voting public to decide. And so the fact that he feels that way, that's wonderful. Let him vote that way in the, in the privacy of the voting booth, but let him not say that this is now the law of the land just because he happens to think that way.
Tom, let me give you just another couple of quotations from Judge Vaughn Walker's ruling the other day. Judge Walker, the traditional understanding of marriage represents, quote, "nothing more than an artifact of a foregone notion that men and women fulfill different roles in civic life," close quote. That's an artifact
Well, one might say that Judge Walker s- is an artifact of w- what goes on in academia, and particularly in the law schools. But again, the question is, whose decision is that? Is that a judge is there to decide that the rest of us, that what we believe is just not worth thinking about? Or is he there to, carry out the laws that have, been passed- But Tom-... by the duly elected, representatives
Tom, you know that during this trial he had a long fact-finding phase when which one sociologist and expert after another came in to testify about the roles of genders, the state of marriage in the 21st century, and so forth. You just ig- brush all that aside?
No. None of that, is a substitute for the, for we the people, which is what the Constitution's about. Well, I could give you an impressive list of people who have said absurd things. In fact, if you were to, make a list of all the absurd things said by brilliant people, it would be longer than the Encyclopedia Britannica.
All right. one more from Judge Walker here. Quote, "The evidence shows conclusively that moral and religious views form the only basis for the belief that same-sex couples are different from opposite sex couples." Close quote.
Well, it may be conclusive to him, but again, the question is, whose decision is it? Is it obviously it's not conclusive to other people, or else the p- the proposition that he was ruling on would never have passed.
W- and been passed with the votes of 7 million Californians- Yes... by the way. All right. So let me ask you, just step back from that a little bit and ask you this question: How did we go, in the space of a couple of decades, maybe three, but I think probably closer to two- From an America in which the notion of same-sex marriage was literally unthinkable, that is to say it was in nobody's head. -hmm. So outlandish that it never occurred to anyone, to a sitting judge, federal judge, a, named to the federal bench, by the way, by George H.W. Bush- Heaven help us... coming out with an opinion like this. What happened to the legal regime, to the social mor- to the mores? What, d- describe that arc.
Well, this is why, this is, this is, this is why I say that Obama is really the culmination of a trend. He didn't do this by himself. That there was a notion out there, a set of notions, really, about the country, about what was right and about who should make what decisions. Those m- notions were out there, you know, be- before he ever became a public figure. but now that he... And I think what you saw was an erosion of the confidence in the country, in the country's culture, its principles and so forth, and all of this happened. And what is happening now is what was just a, an erosion, sort of almost, uncoordinated and so on, to a, to a deliberate attempt on his part to change the country in fundamental ways.
Right. Now, you talked about Woodrow Wilson, with a certain kind of rot setting in with Woodrow Wilson- Oh, yes... and the progressives, the sort of elitism, "I, Woodrow Wilson, know far better than that- Oh, yeah... that non-entity James Madison who drafted the Constitution." Yeah. Right. All right. But in more recent times that you and I can remember, we had Ronald Reagan- and the sense that somehow the country was coming back.
hmm.
How do we go from Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama? How do you go from a reassertion of what seems to be fundamental faith in the country to a Judge Vaughn Walker? What happened in the space of just two or three decades?
Well, I think it started immediately with Reagan's successor, George H.W. Bush, a no doubt a decent man, an honorable man. But, - One who disdained what he called this vision thing. In other words, that, an overri- overarching sense of principles that you'd be fighting for. to me, I think one of the moments that sort of ga- gave a clue was when, during one of the presidential, debates, when, Bush was looking at his watch.
Right.
I can't imagine Ronald Reagan, or any Democrat for that matter, looking at his watch during a de- I mean, you know, Bush was wa- And I think the mo- the mo- the first moment that you saw a glimpse of this was when Bush first took office, Bush 41, and started talking about a kinder and gentler America, that, it's kinder and gentler to, tax- taxpayers, in order to, make it easier on people who've not, lived up to their responsibilities. You see that right now carried to, extremes in this administration, where, you know, pe- people who never took, n- never took out a $700,000 loan in their lives now have to subsidize people who did take out a $700,000 mortgage loan and couldn't afford it.
Right. So- It is the case that either you have a Ronald Reagan in place fighting for American principles- and Ronald Reagans don't come along that often.
hmm.
Or even a Republican and temperamentally conservative president such as George H.W. Bush will come b- under such cultural and political pressures that the drift to the left- Oh, yes... the dis- that will con- that will continue.
Yes. Yeah, well, what you generally have had in recent times is, people moving to the left rapidly under Democrats and slowly under Republicans.
All right. Segment three, dismantling the culture. From your book, Tom, Dismantling America, quote, "The great escape of our times is escape from personal responsibility," close quote. What do you mean?
Oh, I think that the idea of personal responsibility is, more or less off the table. It's, it's, passe in many, in many places. Again, going back to, say, the housing situation, that people took out mortgages that they couldn't afford, a- and that now people who didn't take out mortgages they couldn't afford are now expected to pay to b- to bail them out. It's insane.
But you don't... They were duped by dishonest mortgage brokers. No?
Oh, there was enough dishonesty to go around. We needn't single out mortgage brokers. no, the, that's the narrative. The fact of the matter i- is that, speculators took advantage. You, see, these things are put in, in, these laws and policies are put into place saying this is gonna help the poor and the downtrodden. But, but the question is, who actually benefits from this? Speculators benefit from this, benefited from this more than any poor or any downtrodden. a speculator could come in, claim any i- income he wanted to claim in order to b- to buy three or four houses. Nobody would verify the income. He'd, he would take, get a teaser rates like 2% per year, and he didn't worry about that going up later because he was gonna sell the house- Right beforehand. And so, a lot of that, w- was in there. The other thing is that- The, it's a very complicated financial situation. But the cold fact is if the, if the mortgages had continued to be paid, we wouldn't have had the mortgage crisis. So the f- the, the fundamental reason for the crisis is the m- is that the mortgages weren't paid, and the fundamental reason they weren't paid is that they were made under conditions, that made it unlikely that they would ever be repaid. I mean, you knew that going in.
Right. Right. losing a sense of personal responsibility, you write in Dismantling America, places, quote, "A whole society in jeopardy." How is that the case? How do you d- draw a line from the mortgage crisis to the dismantling of the entire country?
Well, I think if you don't have a sense of personal responsibility, and what you have is the government, taking money from people who are personally responsible and giving it to people who are irresponsible, or in m- in other cases, corrupt, that's, that's not, that's not a viable situation for the long term. the, you're gonna have ever more people being ever more irresponsible.
as is happening now. I mean, in the, in the wake of the mortgage crisis, they've raised the, limit that the Federal Housing Administration will insure from about 360,000 to 720-some thousand. so they've dou- so they've doubled the, p- the, the policy that got us into pro- into problems in the first place.
Tom, you, on personal responsibility, and you and I have talked about this before, you spent part of your boyhood in Harlem.
Yes.
Is that correct?
Yes, most of it.
All right. Tell me a little bit about the Harlem that you knew as a boy. Was it safe at night?
Yes, when I, when I would wake up in the middle of the night, I would get up, get dressed, and go out to a c- a c- corner, newsstand where there was a little old man who was white, selling, s- selling newspapers in Harlem at midnight. Now, today, he and I would both be taken in for mental observation. You know?
Yeah. How were the schools in the Harlem of your boyhood?
Oh, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were the, among the best in the country. -
Public schools.
Public schools. We're gonna hear about public schools. Oh, I only went to public schools. I have data on the actual test scores of kids in Harlem. they were v- they were almost identical with the kids in the Lower East Side, who were almost all white. and, nobody at Trump was concerned about, you know, h- giving me school lunches and stuff like that. they didn't, they didn't ask me whether my home was broken or not. they just told me what I was supposed to do, and they, made damn sure I did it.
Do your homework, get your assignments in.
That's it.
Tom, what happened between the Harlem of your boyhood, which would be, what, late '40s to the mid-'50s or so?
Oh, '40s. Not... Oh, I went... My f- my first school I attended in Harlem was 1939.
Oh, real- All right. So you grew up in... You were there during the Second World War.
Oh, yes.
All right. So the Harlem c- take me from the Harlem of your boyhood, in this theme of personal responsibility, to the Harlem of the '70s and '
80s. Oh, there you got the s- the teachers became social workers, social theorists. They began prop- became propagandists for all kinds of, new fads. And, the, I guess the, the test was whether they made the teachers feel like it was exciting and it made the students feel good about themselves. So- Of course, they end up not with n- with no education that's worth talking about.
And what about the crime rates?
Crime, oh my goodness, the crime rates were much lower. I g- I gave a talk- Mu-
much lower when you were a boy, but- Yes... so h- so what, w- to what do you attribute the cr- the rise in crime?
Oh, the rise and the, and the idea that, we have to look for the root causes of crime rather than, put, put the bad guys in jail.
All right. So there's the dissolution of the sense of personal responsibility that the teacher is to teach, the child is to do his homework.
Criminals are to be picked up and put in jail.
Yes.
Now, Harlem today is pretty safe. It has enjoyed the, increase in safety or the drop in crime rates th- with the, associated with the rest of New York- -hmm that began under Rudy Giuliani. -hmm. The Harlem economy is pretty robust.
hmm.
And Harlem is now home to some two dozen charter schools. -hmm. So what I'm trying to do, Tom, is cheer you up. I'm trying to-
Well, I need it...
I'm trying to point to evidence of the possibility of renewal, of rebirth, and that, to suggest that-
I never, I never denied that there, that there was possibility for renewal and rebirth. so I always said it w- in fact, even in my book I say, you know, the one good thing is that nothing is inevitable until it happens. Ah. But I also point out that there were, there were p- periods of, improvement, as the, as the Roman Empire moved toward its last days.
Right. All right. Segment four, dismantling self-government. Again, Tom, from Dismantling America. Quote, "Nothing so epitomizes President Obama's contempt for American values and traditions as ramming two bills," the stimulus package and the healthcare bill, this would be, "through Congress in his first year. Each bill more than 1,000 pages long, too fast for either to be read, much less discussed." Close quote. Stimulus package, the health- the healthcare bill, actually, I looked this up, came to more than 2,000 pages. Yeah. On the other hand, the American people elected Barack Obama. They l- gave him big Democratic majorities in both the House and the Senate. Why shouldn't Barack Obama and his Democratic al- allies enact whatever they want as they want?
Oh, whatever they want is one thing. As they want is something else. As they want means circumventing the whole political system of the country that's meant to safeguard, you know, a self-governing country. If you ne- if you don't- if you never learn what, what kind of laws are being passed, then you've lost a great deal of your ability to influence what happens, to the people who rule. I mean, the thing that... This whole business with, rush- rushing these bills through, it reminds me, only thing I can find in parallel in history is the Norman conquerors who would publish their laws in England in French for an English-speaking nation.
Dismantling America once again. What are the Beltway politicians buying with all the hundreds of billions of dollars they are spending? They are buying what politicians are most interested in, power.
hmm.
Explain that notion.
There are things that the pr- government is authorized to do under the Constitution, and other things that they're not authorized to do. But by simply spending a vast amount of money, you acquire the right to do them. For example, you can, you can fire the head of General Motors simply because you spent all that money buying, or rescuing General Motors. there are all kinds of pr- of, programs that the federal government imposes on the states which they have no authority to do. But they impose them because, they make the receipt of federal money contingent on doing what they tell you in Washington. And so the powers that were set out in the Constitution and limited become e- expanded by this process.
Now, I mentioned that we had, we've had some questions for you submitted from people who follow the show on Twitter and Facebook. Here's one from a fellow called Albert Fuchs on Facebook. And he points out, I'll paraphrase because it's, a little bit long here. Milton Friedman said, "A major reason for the growth of government is that special interests are concentrated, but the general interest is diffuse." And Tocqueville warned that American democracy would be in danger when the public learned it could use the ballot box to vote itself money.
Yes.
Now, both of these get at what you were talking about just a moment ago, but both of these are structural points. They have the, it has been the case since the Constitution was enacted that special interests are concentrated and the general inter- interest is diffuse, or that politicians could dis- could in effect purchase votes.
Yes.
Why do we have the problem now? What has happened in recent- Oh, very good question recent decades?
Bec- because one of the constraints are the values of the public, and when the values of the public are constantly eroded, in the schools, and in the press, elsewhere, then these other tendencies can have a wider field of play.
hmm. So what's a good index for the values of the public? Would you say, would you say, for example, that it might be federal spending or federal debt, where for two centuries you get a fairly flat, slowly cli- climbing line, goes up during the Civil War, comes back down, and then in the s- beginning about in the '70s, it just takes off?
Yes.
So it's not FDR. It's not the Great Deal. It's not the '30s. It's the '70s? Is that when things- Well, yeah, well, well, you, well- When do you think things begin to go catastrophically wrong?
I, I would s- I would say, I would, I would say it w- it was the Great Depression. Most people are unaware that prior to the 1930s, the federal government never intervened in the economy to get us out of a recession. The peop- the, the economy recovered on its own and kept going. but FDR really broke down a great deal o- of, of that sense that, of independence. I mean, there was a time, I think, most Americans would've felt insulted, to have it thought that they wanted somebody else to pay their medical bills. They don't feel so insulted anymore.
hmm. -hmm. All right. This is, what I'm trying to get at this, on the one hand, you've got an elite-... that is effectively engaging in a slow motion hijacking of America. Yes. That's a crude way- Yeah... but one way of putting it. But at the other hand, you've got more and more Americans who either like the idea of being hijacked- Yeah are too worn out to fight it anymore. I'm trying to f- to get your sense of the extent to which the public itself is, - Oh, yeah... is dispirited.
Well, the, the ideas of the '60s, the idea that if, you had a grievance, you didn't have to obey the law.
Historian Paul Ray of Hillsdale College, he grants... We did a shoot with Paul Ray, and he grants a great deal of what you've been saying here, Tom. But now listen to Paul Ray, quote, "The political moment in which we live is a moment of great hope," close quote. How so? Because by overreaching so dramatically, President Obama has roused the American people to reclaim their old liberties. The Obama administration, Paul Ray argues, this is a quotation, is, quote, "A gift to the friends of liberty," close quote.
I hope he is right and that I am wrong.
And you don't, are you encouraged by the Tea Party, by the polls that show that-
Oh, yes. The, but there is such a thing as a point of no return, and I think then the real question is whether he can take us there. And that's, that's why I think that the, fall 2000, 2010 elections are, i- in my judgment, pro- one of the most, if not the most important election we've ever held. All right. Because if he doesn't get stopped in the, in the, in this fall's election, I don't know how he will ever be stopped. for one thing, when people talk about his falling in the polls, he's still in the 40s. If he can somehow make millions of illegal immigrants legal and voters before 2012, he can get a second term, and I, and I doubt if there's... I see that as a point of no return.
So getting some substantial portion of the 12 million illegal immigrants in this country to vote- Yes that would be a direction, step toward the point of no return. Yes. I'm talk- domestically, what other... Is Obamacare... Obamacare is reversible, or at least its i- ill effects can be contained. It all comes down to November 2010.
Oh, this year. If it's not, if it's not stopped now, it won't be stopped.
All right. So November 2nd, 4th, I can't remember which is Election Day. You have one specific date in American history which you can name right now- -hmm... that you consider act- absolutely crucial.
Oh, absolutely. It's, it's li- it's almost like the great military battles, you know, Ch- Charles Ma- Ma- Mackell at- Poitiers Tours. Yes,
yes. 732. I actually looked that up just yesterday- Yes,
yes... for a separate
reason.
Or the Siege of Vienna in 1532. You know, had those things gone the other way, it would be a totally different world today.
We're into segment five, which I had in my notes titled The Point of No Return. You mention in Dismantling America such a point in foreign policy. Let me quote you, Tom. "Iran is advancing step by step toward nuclear weapons while the Europeans wring their hands and the United Nations engages in leisurely discussion. When Osama Bin Laden has nuclear weapons, the choice will be between knuckling under and watching American cities blasted off the face of the earth. That is the point of no return, and we are drifting toward it." Close quote. Nothing you've seen since you wrote that causes you to reconsider or- No... mute your views?
No. I was appalled earlier this year when the, I think it was, Gates or someone else in the Pentagon leaked the fact that there were no contingency m- military plans for stopping Iran from getting nuclear weapons. And now recently, there'd been some talk that there, that there are now plans. -hmm. Now, I have no idea whether that means that there really are plans or whether they see an election coming and they'd better create the impression that they have more cl- plans. 'Cause they've covered themselves very well because they have international conferences over Iran, they have resolutions in the UN. This, these are, these are what I call elaborate ways of doing nothing.
Well, we've got, let me quote you Michael Barone, the journalist. You know Michael Barone. Yes. He, this is just from a couple of days ago. quote, "Time's, Time Magazine's Joe Klein and The American Interest's Walter Russell Mead suggested to me that the Obama administration is seriously considering a military strike against Iran. Now comes further evidence in an opinion article in the Washington Post by Steven Simon and Ray Takeyh." I'm not sure I'm pronouncing that correctly. "Simon worked in Bill Clinton's National Security Council, and Takeyh is described as a former advisor to the Obama administration. Their article takes seriously the possibility that the president will order such an attack." And your answer to that is, "That could be nothing but cheap leaking."
Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it.
All right.
The, in fact, he doesn't have to do that. All he has to do is nod in a fear if the Israelis wanna do it. I saw someplace where, Saudi Arabia has indicated that the Israelis could fly over Saudi Arabia to get there, and it's ironic that the, they would have to go around Iraq and fly over Saudi Arabia because the American planes patrol Iraq, and presumably would shoot down the Israeli planes on their way to Iran.
Let me ask you this. Do you consider it, then, the duty of the president of the United States to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear-
Absolutely.
That's clear to you. Absolutely.
Unambiguously. I, I don't, I don't know what earthly, chance we have or the Western world has once Iran has those weapons. You know, it took two
weapons- What about this notion, what about this notion of, deterrence? It worked during the Cold War.
Yeah, the R- the R- the, Russians did not want us to blast Moscow off the map. The Iranians have said themselves, going back to, Ayatollah Khomeini, that their, that their top priority is not Iran, but Allah. And so if they get into a war in which Iran is knocked out, but they then strike a blow for Allah, they're, the, they're, they're, they're happy with that
And failing any serious sign that the United States would attack, would you say that it's the duty of the Prime Minister of Israel and his cabinet to order an attack?
Oh, absolutely. It's, it's, but, th- think of how pathetic this is that, the fate of the United States of America would be in the hands of a country smaller than Lake Michigan.
hmm. one final time from Dismantling America, "To follow Rome, one of the greatest civilizations of all time, as it degenerated and fractured, is especially painful in view of the parallels to what is happening in America in our own times." Close quote. Yeah. What are the parallels that are most striking to you?
The internal loss of confidence. -hmm. that we're not prepared to stand up and defend, ourselves. I mean, there are all kinds of small signs and large signs, but that we have to accommodate, people who move here. You know, the old saying was that, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." The new one is, "When in Rome, tell the Romans what to do."
hmm.
And we're going along with it.
hmm. Tom, let me, close this out by getting your kind of a broad civilizational view here. Fourth century- Rome's final century as a great power. Of course, it lingers on in Constantinople for another thousand years, but fourth century, we have St. Augustine watching from North Africa as his beloved Rome, where he studied, he's a great, product of classical civilization, is sacked, and he responds by averting his gaze from this world and writing The City of God.. He, he shifts his attentions to heaven. -hmm. A few decades later, we have St. Benedict of Nursia up in northern Italy, and he's the founder of great monasteries, attempting to hoard, in a certain sense, what learning he can, and hoping that later there will be regrowth. And he adopts a motto which translates from the Latin, "To pruned, it will grow again." So is Tom Sowell an Augustine- who's insisting on underlying principles and a k- kind of eternal values, but actually foresees, believes that what he is observing is total collapse-... or is he a Benedict, hoping for, preparing for, doing what he can to initiate rebirth?
Well, I'm at an age where I couldn't play either of those roles.
You look pretty saintly to me, Tom.
You need new glasses. But, but, no, I, I think it was really,... But what I meant about the, the pathetic aspect of the, aftermath of the collapse of Rome is, you know, the, these heroic efforts which ultimately paid off, you know, many centuries later, but they were centuries to live through. Ime- imagine-
Yeah, well, the Dark Ages were dark.
Yes. Imagine living in the midst of ruins that you don't even have the knowledge to repair, much less to build, you know?
Oh, that's what you mean in the passage when you talk about the pathetic attempt to- Yes... rebuild among the ruins.
Yes.
The sense that there was a civilization here.
And it was all around you, and this is... I think this is part of the reason that the Europe or that, of that era is tho- thought of as a backward-looking civilization. They had good reason to look backwards because the people before them had achieved far more than they were capable of achieving or even sustaining.
So your fear is that t- two decades from now, Americans will be looking back at re- even at the 1950s, a time of growth and American self-confidence, and standing up to the Soviets in the Cold War, assuming a large role in the world, that'll be gone, and we'll have the feeling that we're pygmies by comparison with... There's something of this in Tom Brokaw's book, The Greatest Generation.
Yes.
There's a kind of nostalgia, a feeling that those who came just before us were bigger people somehow. -hmm.
They were.
They were. You-
Yes.
All right. last question. If you could offer one sentence of counsel to the President of the United States, what would you say, Tom?
Resign.
No, I can't end the program on that. If you could offer one sentence of counsel to some 20-year-old kid who's watching this webcast... And by the way, when we put up a notice that you were going to appear on Twitter or Face- You are a rock star to college kids. I want you to know that. So there's, there's, there's, there's hope. You're, you're, you're s- you're reaching people. So one sentence of advice to some sophomore or junior who's watching this today and thinks to himself, "Gee, Dr. Sowell just told me the America in which I'm going to grow up will be a shrunken place."
No. it's, it's not over till it's over, as Yogi Berra said. And, I would say to this young person, "If we through some miracle get through this, please take to heart the lesson of what happens when you vote on the basis of, rhetoric and symbolism, and instead of using your mind." it doesn't matter how smart you are unless you stop and think.
Dr. Thomas Sowell, the author of Dismantling America, thank you for joining us.
Thank you.
I'm Peter Robinson for Uncommon Knowledge and the Hoover Institution. Thank you.
More from the archive
I'm Clay. I built this archive.
I also write every morning, working through the ideas Sowell spent his life on, in my own words. If that's your speed, get on the list.
No spam. No algorithm. Unsubscribe anytime.